oh whoa. i always thought you could. I didn't see where the rules ever made mention of it. All I saw was that if the shooter is in melee he cannot fire.
I can understand why a highly honourable member of the Prefecture Dragon Clan wouldn't shoot in to combat, well not without aiming first, but a bakemono? Where's the 'savage' in not shooting especially if the mele has summond bakemono invloved?
since its a young game i'll go ahead and post my thoughts.
after reading the rules and coming to the conclusion that firing into melee was not only allowed but that no penalties existed for it, I was actually happy with it. most games give you a chance to hit your own guy or give you some sort of penalty. to me it actually made sense that bushido did not do this for a couple of reasons. 1) there are not a lot of ranged attacks 2) it is a 2x2 table 3) models may not make ranged attacks while in melee themselves
the combination of the 3, to me, meant that if you somehow managed to keep your shooter out of combat that you were rewarded by actually getting to use him. the small table size, reloading, and ammo all curb the abuse of ranged attacks. we also like to play with a lot of terrain. not being able to fire into melee essentially means you will get one shot per game.
just my opinion so you can take it for what its worth. but as more models get added to the game, the first ones i would drop from my list if i were min/maxing are the ones that rely heavily on ranged attacks.
I'd say that models should be able to shoot into combat for the very reasons you say they shouldn't. Mainly because they seldom get a chance to shoot, but if you had a 50/50 chance of hitting the friend then I expect only Bakemono would attempt it anyway.
Hey Hithero, I think Master of puppets was outlining the reasons why you should be able to shoot into melee.
Thanks for your thoughts guys, as always we will listen to your ideas and take them into consideration, remember our rules exist as the best way to play Bushido in our opinion. modify where you want when playing with your friends and like this post let us know how you changed it and why it's better.
Obviously when tournaments begin they will have to follow standardised rules.
I for one wouldn't allow firing into melee for a number of reasons.
1: The type of melee combat realized would be a swirling motion of bodies, limbs, swords etc you would never guarantee hitting your intended target.
2: The type of ranged weapons are limited and not designed to specifically take out individual targets.
3: The Ashigaru Teppo has a single shot, slow reloadable, historically inaccurate weapon.
4: Bakemono are cowardly and rotten shots with a very prehistoric little bow. They are more likely to gang up on wounded or exhausted targets and try and pick them off.
5: Plus imagine shooting your own big raging scary Oni with a pointy sticky! Bakky life expectancy - zero!!!
Well that's my thoughts rightly or wrongly. As far as rules concerned firing into melee is not in the rules, so it's not allowed. GCT may change this?
I was fantastic! And it was a bloody good laugh!
Cult 1 - Savage Wave 0
Well those are all of the fluffy reasons why you should not be able to fire into combat and why most/all other games either do not allow it or have some sort of penalty for it. However basing rules on fluff is not always the best design in my opinion.
"As far as rules concerned firing into melee is not in the rules, so it's not allowed."
That's not actually true. The rules permit making a ranged attack if 1) the model is capable of making a ranged attack 2) there is a valid target: an enemy model within the model's Line of Sight 3) the model (not crystal clear antecedent here but I believe it is obviously referring to the model attempting to make the attack) is not in an enemy models (sic) Zone of Control, or in Base to Base contact with an enemy model. If these requirements are met, follow the Ranged Combat section to resolve the attack.
When the target is in melee, it is still possible to meet all the requirements for making a ranged attack, and therefore the rules do currently allow for it.
Of course house rules are an option for any game, but I just wanted to point that out because I haven't found where the rules actually do not allow for firing into melee, so if that is the intent (as you guys have stated in the thread) I wanted to point it out before you expend the resources to make a nice, big, colorful rules book. Every game inevitably requires Errata and FAQ, but if you can catch things before it goes to print it's always better I think.
@master; appreciate where your coming from but if a models in BtB then it's in melee and can't be targeted. Not sure I understand your last reasoning mate? From those examples you exclude all models in melee therefore meaning you can't target models in melee.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
@master; appreciate where your coming from but if a models in BtB then it's in melee and can't be targeted. Not sure I understand your last reasoning mate? From those examples you exclude all models in melee therefore meaning you can't target models in melee.
The rules do not actually prevent shooting into combat though, there is no criteria preventing it in the rules, only if the shooter is in B2B is shooting prevented.
Hands Up :) sorry Master of Puppets, it could do with an additional line of text or restructuring of the paragraph to exclude models in BtB as targets.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
So there appears to be an opportunity to retrospectively close down shooting into melee or retrospectively create conditions where it is allowed.
My sense is that shooting into melee is often a desperate measure so if you miss your intended target chances are you'll hit a friendly model..... however, just because it's desperate doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.
Rather than start a new thread I'll lump this on here:
Can you use 'target' Ki feats vs models in melee?
ie: In a game against MechaAce tonight I wanted Wu-Zang to 'Curse Fate' Hiro who was in melee with Zuba. However, since 'Curse Fate' states 'target model' we figured it was akin to a shooting attack and therefor not allowed.
Is this correct?
btw: I'm fine with models not being able to shoot into melee, would just like this cleared up before I take the field again.
Hey guys, I'm very new to the game. I've read the rules and are planning on playing my first game tomorrow.
When I read the rules I didn't interpret them as saying you can't shoot into combat, and personally I like the idea of being able to do so. But I also agree that there should be risk involved to your own miniature or maybe a -2 to your RCP.
If you don't want people shooting into H2H, it really needs to be made more clear in the QSR. Just my opinion anyway.
This thread makes it clear that one cannot shoot into a melee combat, but the rules as written currently confuse the issue, so I'm resurrecting this to get them both in line:
From the Living rules & Downloadable rulebooks:
(Simple Actions): To make a Ranged Attack the model must meet the following requirements:
1. The model must be capable of making a ranged attack
2. There must be a valid target, i.e. an enemy model, within the model’s Line of Sight.
3. The model is not in an enemy models Zone of Control, or in Base to Base contact with an enemy model.
1 and 2 are fine, but 3 leads to confusion. I would restate 3 to say: "3. The model making the Attack is not in an enemy model's Zone of Control or Base to Base with it. <cr> 4. The target model is not in Base to Base contact with an enemy model."
(Ranged Attacks in Details): If a model is eligible to make a Ranged attack, it may do so if and only if there is a valid target, i.e. an enemy model, within the model’s LoS, and the model making the Attack is not in an enemy models Zone of Control, or in Base to Base contact with an enemy model.
This says nothing about the target being in or out of BtB or ZoC of an enemy model, just the shooter needs to be. I would reword it to say "if there is a valid target, i.e. an enemy model, within the shooter's LoS, the model making the Attack is not in an enemy model's Zone of Control or Base to Base with it, and the target is not in Base to Base contact with an enemy model."
((I'm assuming it is okay for the target to be in the ZoC of an enemy - not shooter obviously - model))
I also fall in the group of people who interpreted the RaW as allowing for shooting into melee combat (giving cover as appropriate to the target), until I read this thread.
I didn't see any errata to this in the pdfs, bumping the ruling so it can be added into the Living Rule Book! Just adding a phrase like "...in LoS and not in B2B contact or the ZoC of a model that is friendly to the attacker,"
No, you cant shoot into melee.
Facebook - www.facebook.com/gctbushido
Twitter - www.twitter.com/BushidoGCT
oh whoa. i always thought you could. I didn't see where the rules ever made mention of it. All I saw was that if the shooter is in melee he cannot fire.
I can understand why a highly honourable member of the Prefecture Dragon Clan wouldn't shoot in to combat, well not without aiming first, but a bakemono? Where's the 'savage' in not shooting especially if the mele has summond bakemono invloved?
Osu
Joken
No easy dice roll too difficult
since its a young game i'll go ahead and post my thoughts.
after reading the rules and coming to the conclusion that firing into melee was not only allowed but that no penalties existed for it, I was actually happy with it. most games give you a chance to hit your own guy or give you some sort of penalty. to me it actually made sense that bushido did not do this for a couple of reasons. 1) there are not a lot of ranged attacks 2) it is a 2x2 table 3) models may not make ranged attacks while in melee themselves
the combination of the 3, to me, meant that if you somehow managed to keep your shooter out of combat that you were rewarded by actually getting to use him. the small table size, reloading, and ammo all curb the abuse of ranged attacks. we also like to play with a lot of terrain. not being able to fire into melee essentially means you will get one shot per game.
just my opinion so you can take it for what its worth. but as more models get added to the game, the first ones i would drop from my list if i were min/maxing are the ones that rely heavily on ranged attacks.
I'd say that models should be able to shoot into combat for the very reasons you say they shouldn't. Mainly because they seldom get a chance to shoot, but if you had a 50/50 chance of hitting the friend then I expect only Bakemono would attempt it anyway.
We meet at the Medway Wargames Society: http://sites.google.com/site/medwaywargamessociety/location
Hey Hithero, I think Master of puppets was outlining the reasons why you should be able to shoot into melee.
Thanks for your thoughts guys, as always we will listen to your ideas and take them into consideration, remember our rules exist as the best way to play Bushido in our opinion. modify where you want when playing with your friends and like this post let us know how you changed it and why it's better.
Obviously when tournaments begin they will have to follow standardised rules.
Facebook - www.facebook.com/gctbushido
Twitter - www.twitter.com/BushidoGCT
I for one wouldn't allow firing into melee for a number of reasons.
1: The type of melee combat realized would be a swirling motion of bodies, limbs, swords etc you would never guarantee hitting your intended target.
2: The type of ranged weapons are limited and not designed to specifically take out individual targets.
3: The Ashigaru Teppo has a single shot, slow reloadable, historically inaccurate weapon.
4: Bakemono are cowardly and rotten shots with a very prehistoric little bow. They are more likely to gang up on wounded or exhausted targets and try and pick them off.
5: Plus imagine shooting your own big raging scary Oni with a pointy sticky! Bakky life expectancy - zero!!!
Well that's my thoughts rightly or wrongly. As far as rules concerned firing into melee is not in the rules, so it's not allowed. GCT may change this?
I was fantastic! And it was a bloody good laugh!
Cult 1 - Savage Wave 0
http://www.hittingonadouble1.blogspot.co.uk/
Well those are all of the fluffy reasons why you should not be able to fire into combat and why most/all other games either do not allow it or have some sort of penalty for it. However basing rules on fluff is not always the best design in my opinion.
"As far as rules concerned firing into melee is not in the rules, so it's not allowed."
That's not actually true. The rules permit making a ranged attack if 1) the model is capable of making a ranged attack 2) there is a valid target: an enemy model within the model's Line of Sight 3) the model (not crystal clear antecedent here but I believe it is obviously referring to the model attempting to make the attack) is not in an enemy models (sic) Zone of Control, or in Base to Base contact with an enemy model. If these requirements are met, follow the Ranged Combat section to resolve the attack.
When the target is in melee, it is still possible to meet all the requirements for making a ranged attack, and therefore the rules do currently allow for it.
Of course house rules are an option for any game, but I just wanted to point that out because I haven't found where the rules actually do not allow for firing into melee, so if that is the intent (as you guys have stated in the thread) I wanted to point it out before you expend the resources to make a nice, big, colorful rules book. Every game inevitably requires Errata and FAQ, but if you can catch things before it goes to print it's always better I think.
@master; appreciate where your coming from but if a models in BtB then it's in melee and can't be targeted. Not sure I understand your last reasoning mate? From those examples you exclude all models in melee therefore meaning you can't target models in melee.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
The rules do not actually prevent shooting into combat though, there is no criteria preventing it in the rules, only if the shooter is in B2B is shooting prevented.
We meet at the Medway Wargames Society: http://sites.google.com/site/medwaywargamessociety/location
Hands Up :) sorry Master of Puppets, it could do with an additional line of text or restructuring of the paragraph to exclude models in BtB as targets.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
So there appears to be an opportunity to retrospectively close down shooting into melee or retrospectively create conditions where it is allowed.
My sense is that shooting into melee is often a desperate measure so if you miss your intended target chances are you'll hit a friendly model..... however, just because it's desperate doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.
Osu
Joken
No easy dice roll too difficult
Rather than start a new thread I'll lump this on here:
Can you use 'target' Ki feats vs models in melee?
ie: In a game against MechaAce tonight I wanted Wu-Zang to 'Curse Fate' Hiro who was in melee with Zuba. However, since 'Curse Fate' states 'target model' we figured it was akin to a shooting attack and therefor not allowed.
Is this correct?
btw: I'm fine with models not being able to shoot into melee, would just like this cleared up before I take the field again.
Defying Evolution Since 1983
No, Ki Feats can target models in Melee as long as to can draw LoS.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
HA! Brilliant! Cheers Master.
Defying Evolution Since 1983
Hey guys, I'm very new to the game. I've read the rules and are planning on playing my first game tomorrow.
When I read the rules I didn't interpret them as saying you can't shoot into combat, and personally I like the idea of being able to do so. But I also agree that there should be risk involved to your own miniature or maybe a -2 to your RCP.
If you don't want people shooting into H2H, it really needs to be made more clear in the QSR. Just my opinion anyway.
Okay, gonna "Raise Again" this thread:
This thread makes it clear that one cannot shoot into a melee combat, but the rules as written currently confuse the issue, so I'm resurrecting this to get them both in line:
From the Living rules & Downloadable rulebooks:
(Simple Actions): To make a Ranged Attack the model must meet the following requirements:
1. The model must be capable of making a ranged attack
2. There must be a valid target, i.e. an enemy model, within the model’s Line of Sight.
3. The model is not in an enemy models Zone of Control, or in Base to Base contact with an enemy model.
1 and 2 are fine, but 3 leads to confusion. I would restate 3 to say: "3. The model making the Attack is not in an enemy model's Zone of Control or Base to Base with it. <cr> 4. The target model is not in Base to Base contact with an enemy model."
(Ranged Attacks in Details): If a model is eligible to make a Ranged attack, it may do so if and only if there is a valid target, i.e. an enemy model, within the model’s LoS, and the model making the Attack is not in an enemy models Zone of Control, or in Base to Base contact with an enemy model.
This says nothing about the target being in or out of BtB or ZoC of an enemy model, just the shooter needs to be. I would reword it to say "if there is a valid target, i.e. an enemy model, within the shooter's LoS, the model making the Attack is not in an enemy model's Zone of Control or Base to Base with it, and the target is not in Base to Base contact with an enemy model."
((I'm assuming it is okay for the target to be in the ZoC of an enemy - not shooter obviously - model))
I also fall in the group of people who interpreted the RaW as allowing for shooting into melee combat (giving cover as appropriate to the target), until I read this thread.
"what color did you use, red with a black wash?"
I didn't see any errata to this in the pdfs, bumping the ruling so it can be added into the Living Rule Book! Just adding a phrase like "...in LoS and not in B2B contact or the ZoC of a model that is friendly to the attacker,"