Moving near others

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Thu, 04/19/2012 - 20:33
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Ret-Henrix
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Moving near others

Here are a couple of movement related questions:

1) Can you move through friendly models, or do their bases block movement?

2) When you enter an enemy ZoC, do you have to move directly into contact, or can you sort of sidle into contact.

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Thu, 04/19/2012 - 22:15
GCT Master T
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1) all models block movement including friendliest.

2. When you are in a ZoC you need to move directly towards or away.

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

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Fri, 04/20/2012 - 13:26
Ret-Henrix
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Thank you!

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

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Sun, 07/15/2012 - 23:32
Javier
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What happens if in the trajectory (when you try to go directly towards the model whose zoc you already are) you have to penetrate another's model zoc. Can't you get btb with the first model in that case?

If you can not get btb with the first model (even when you are already in its zoc) because of the second one's zoc, really messy situations can occur. For example, if you have three models (let's think on bakemonos here, because there are plenty of them) in a straight chain, all of them btb with the next one, the one in the middle cannot be charged, and the other two just from the side, avoiding the central one's zoc. But, one step further, if you have a very long chain of models (let's keep thinking on bakemonos) you cannot get into btb with no one but the two ones at the edges... That's ugly... all the chain advancing almost unstoppable (and what about if we set an oni at every edge...). Actually, if you set a straight chain of bakemonos on the corner of the table, the beginning of the chain btb with one edge of the table, the end of the chain btb with the oder edge of the table, then it's virtually imposible get btb with any of the models in the chain...

So, my question here is: once you're inside a model's zoc, can you ignore the other models' zoc? Or you can perform those ugly situations I described before? (Because even if you try to get btb with two of the members of the three-model-chain, the third one doesn't allow you to do it, I designed my zoc cardboard silouettes to chek it...).

I hope it was not too confusing...

 

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Mon, 07/16/2012 - 11:20
cain
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What happens if in the trajectory (when you try to go directly towards the model whose zoc you already are) you have to penetrate another's model zoc. Can't you get btb with the first model in that case?

By the actual rules, no. Get in contact with both or keep out. Thats the deal with bodyguarding models so you can protect the weak ones a bit.

With bases of 30mm and most control zones only 25mm you should be able to avoid double zones sometimes.

The example with the 3 chain i have to check myself. Ah yes, you cant attack the middle Bakemono because the control zones. But this is ok to me, if you have 2 buddies left and right and someone just walks in and breaks your nose, thats not nice. 

I dont have problems with this rule, think the "Engaged loose ZoC" rule deals with this "problem". But yes, sometimes its a bit fuzzy to check all the different control zones but thats what positioning its for. Else you would have no protection from charging models into your lines and smashing your support.

The long chain is kind of a phalanx, of course you cant deal with it from the front and you can break it from the flanks. And add ranged combat.

And if i see a long bakemono chain singing "we stand together" its more a joke. Send in a armored/ terrifiying model and let them trying to charge it. Giving an opponent a charge is not an always an advantage for him. You have 1 action left to attack an exhausted model back, and you can block the charge.

 

So, my question here is: once you're inside a model's zoc, can you ignore the other models' zoc?

 

No. a rule like this leads to other situations. Like if Ekusa is protected by 2 monks, but because he has a longer staff you enter his ZoC first, engage him and kill him despite of his bodyguards?

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Mon, 07/16/2012 - 13:56
Ret-Henrix
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I do believe this has been discussed earlier, and that when in the ZoC of two models you have to engage the closest.  Simple as that.

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

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Mon, 07/16/2012 - 21:38
Javier
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Ok, it's a way to see it, it sounds reasonable, it's just that (replying henrix here as well ;) ) sometimes there are realy complicated situations, and you can set some virually unchargeble structures, with 3 or more models, some protecting others, and these others protected by distance / other models / terrain elements / etc. For example, 2 models in btb contact each other, and both with the turtle master are unchargeble as long as the other side of the turtle is protected (or as long as there are two more models on this other side of the tortoise XD).

If this is the way it works, there's no problem for me, of course, just trying to be sure about the rules concerning this point (since, I have checked other threads looking for the answer). On the other hand, I don't know if the zoc rules were designed with this purpose in mind (the multizoc intercounter XD), although, of course, there are always lots of non intended mechanisms in every rulement, and that's not necessary wrong. Finally, I have to say that these defensive structures are really strong and annoying, just saying XD.

Anyway, I'm not complaining at all, as I said, I rather like to be sure about the rules in all detail, and also I like to meditate about these little things ;)

Thanks for the answers, mates.

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Mon, 07/16/2012 - 22:08
GCT Master T
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Hi Javier

Is this more theory than practice? as you can only move one model a turn its almost impossible to set these situations up without the opponent being able to engage you. 

"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."

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Mon, 07/16/2012 - 22:25
Ret-Henrix
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I don't really understand how you get one of the unchargeable situations. Can you sketch it?

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

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Mon, 07/16/2012 - 23:16
Javier
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Thanks for the answers, it's not just theory, we are playing a lot of games, and some situationes come...

Other ones, we extrapole from the situations we've already seen on the board.

I don't know how to sketch it (a little embarrasing here... I guess I am one of these not so young non-technologized fellas ;) )

I'll try to describe it better, sorry for the troubles:

Basically, if the turtle is sourrounded by his friends, these ones btb with him, no enemy can get btb with any model in the cluster.

Of course that's a extreme situation (just to ilusitrate the idea), since you must move the models one by one and you cannot move the cluster without opening the box.

But, you get the turtle sourrounded by two models and an idol (the three things equal distribuited along the turtle's base), and you cannot touch neither the two models, nor the tortoise. Wich it's probably not a big deal, I just to want to be sure about the situation, because I want to understand the rules precisely.

Other situations you can create on the table are not so extreme (or defensively static, or whatever), but pretty strong, using the ZoCs, and the terrain elements. Once more, and particulary here, I don't say that's wrong, nor even a big deal. It's just we're playing a lot (3 or 4 battles today), we like the game more and more, we look for new strategys and new ways to use our tactics, and we like to be sure about the rules, so I come here with the doubts load of the day ;).

May be we should play in a more narrative way and not to look the rules so closely, but it's the way we enjoy more...

I hope I'm not doing it too annoying ;).

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Tue, 07/17/2012 - 09:41
Ret-Henrix
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I can't see why that'd stop any attack.

A base is 30mm. If Ekusa stands behind a Kenko his ZoC reaches 20mm in front of the Kenko, while Kenko's reaches 25mm in front of him, meaning that you enter his first.

And, as I said above, move into BtB with the closest enemy solves it, won't it?

I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.

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