I wonder if I can take let's say three Nezumi or more Kairai Risen than two (well there us a model issue here, but let's ignore this as GCT will hopefully bring us more risen soon :)). What about named models, can I take for example two Po Bakemono?
The Monks got models with the Master trait, will they work together?
Or more general, would it make sense to give models something like 'unique' / 'character' and 'rare X' traits to their description, meaning that without such an additional thing you could use as much as you like from the indicated model?
I fear all figures are 'unique', even if their name sounds generic. Only one of each model.
I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.
Currently you can only have one of each card. so if a card has only one model on it you may only have one of that model. This will change in 2ed which should be out for a general beta test in September.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
As long all Models have a unique name (apart from the double Pos) you would need new cards (and names) to prevent all the twins...
Ok, thanks for the answers so right now every model in the game, no matter the name is unique?! But two Master Monks would do? And when a Kairai us risen I use the third card in the Box? So you could only ever rise one Kairai, because there is only one such card?
IMHO I think the unique models aspect is one of the joys of this game, It's what separates it from a lot of other skirmish-scale games (exceptions noted e.g. Malifaux). What I would like to see is a healthy blend of the two, i.e. there should only be one Zuba, but summoned bakemono could fall under a 'generic bakemono with bow/hand weapon' card
I agree with the others that say that the uniqueness of the models is a big draw for me. As awesome as Hiro or Mizuchi are, I wouldn't want to be able to take an army of entirely just them (ok... /maybe/ Mizuchi). It's like why we have Yoshio and Jin. They're 99% the same, and that's fine. Ro-Kan is much like that as well, where each of the monks have stats that are identical or almost identical, but they each have a different ability and different Ki Feats that separate them out. It shows the individual personality of the models, instead of just copy/paste rules with a new fig.
Now, all I need are a couple more dragons like Mizuchi for my Prefecture and I'll be golden. :D
There are some people that call me... Polar_Bear
In fact, most do.
Come see me over at http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/.
Wasn't a pledge against uniqueness if anyone understood it as such :). I'm pro unique in q skirmish too. But there is some uniqueness on some models that should be considered (most likely in the ranks of the cult and wave I think). Looking forward for thoughts on this in the next riles version though.
I think in practice it is unlikely you'd be able to rise more than one Karai, they die rather quickly hehe. And Bakemonos are limited to 9 on the field (I'm pretty sure there is an errata to state as much) so there are enough cards in the starters.
As to having more summoned Bakemono shooters I think that could introduce some really bad lists on some scenarios, Bushido is definitely not shooter centric and their overal rarity allows not to be too concerned by a shooter centric list when designing scenarios. At least that is what I think and we'lll see what the V2 beta yields ;-)
don't ask me about rules, I'm unruly
It was ruled somewhere that you can rise more than one kairai, but you dont get the situation often...
If you consider leaving the individual restrictions, you would need a lot of new cards.
Personally I would like to see some generic models added in. Only one Hiro, granted, but you could have several lesser Samurai... Or, only one Kenko but he could lead some lesser Monks from the "Iron Fist" discipline in the same way that Riku could be the named character for the "water bender" monks, etc. Think of how great Hanso could be if he had more Ashigaru to lead... or if you had more arquebus ashigaru but only Minuro had the 3 shots a minute feat, etc.... I would like to be able to have larger games of 10-15 models per side with these kinds of rules personally.
Five or six models each on a 2'2 surface would probably only hold my interest for so long I think and while I know if you had every model in a faction you could have the kind of model count I'm talking about, not every model in a faction would appeal to me and I wouldn't want to be forced to use them if I wanted to play a larger point game..... That's just my opinion of course... I'm probably in the minority. I would just like to see how the game would play on a bigger surface with a few more models per side involved... I wouldn't want to lose the skirmish feel, but 8-15 models each is still a skirmish game and that's all I am talking about... Then again, I'm new to the game so what do I know. I would like to at least see one mounted Samurai model though at some point.
I imagine it's mostly a question of scale. At the moment the game is still only around a year old, funds new production directly out of sales and has a release schedule of four models a month.
A couple of years down the line that means it's likely we would have more than double the current inventory of figures, and maybe even a sixth faction. At that stage it's very practical to think of 4x4 games of 15 models per side, but at the moment it's going to be unmanageable.
On a personal level though, I'm not sure how much basic rank and file miniatures with no special rules would suit the feel of Bushido.
P.S. Are you the same Strombole as on the infinity forums?
Ther game system works good with a low model count. Especially with the small table.
I already getting fuzzy with Bakemono activations yet and their cards when i start to summon extra ones. So I consider even bigger games with no named troopers as absolutely impractical.
Once you get more and more releases you could split the factions in "sub-factions" a bit. Before you think, wow so much models and i can only field 8 of them per game. Example elemental monks and animal friends monks. Similar to Malifaux crews. Granting advantages when you take pure teams.
But lots of models are no excuse for making a game bigger. Skirmish games should keep at skirmish level. Fast and fun game for 1-2 hours with low model count, but scenariodriven and lots of action.
You see it for warmachine, lots of releases, you cant even squeeze all the must-haves in smaller lists. And whats you end up with? Iam moving my 30 zealots now and start throwing bombs, get a coffee, i think iam ready with my deviation rolls in about a half hour...
I dont want to paint nameless 10men troops, i would play rank&file low scale 10-15mm games if i want an armysized conflict.
Yeah. Agree with Cain on this one whole-heartedly.
The biggest draw for Bushido for me was the scale of the game. I wanted a true skirmish game. You know, something that, at most, you'd have like 10 models on the board for a "big game" (excusing Red Wave here). I started Bushido as a "small, other game to play when I didn't want to play a big game of Warmachine." Which is sorta funny, because I originally picked up Warmachine as a "small, other game to play when I didn't want to play a big game of 40k."
I don't want, in 4-5 years, to have to look for "a small, other game to play when I don't want to play a big game of Bushido." :p
There are some people that call me... Polar_Bear
In fact, most do.
Come see me over at http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/.
I agree it does work well, but I don't have any problem keeping track of several multi-wound characters in games... I do it in star wars minis all the time having huge games in that with a whole bunch of stormtrooper on the table. Each base has an identifying mark or marks that correspond to their card so I always know which stormtrooper is the one who has taken damage and who hasn't and I use a lot more of them in star wars than I would ever use in Bushido. I pretty much play Star Wars on an apocalypse size mega clone wars scale army scale level and don't think Bushido should be. I like the skirmish feel and low model count, just maybe a few more than 5 or 6. But I stated that I would probably be in the minority in that regards and thats fine.
And Ret has made a good point. In a year's time, there will likely be enough model's released where this won't be an issue as I will be more likely to have 10 models in a faction that I want to use rather than only having 5 and wishing there were "3 of these guys". I would love to have a line of arquebus wielding ashigaru is all I'm saying... but it doesn't change the fact that I'm really liking this game either way and I am running to the mailbox every day like a little kid hoping that my Bushido minis will be in there, lol.
And if you see the name Strombole anywhere online whether its on Infinity forums (I'm actually playing a game of Infinity in a few hours today and at the same time using some of my Yu Jing models to show the guy how bushido works to try to get him into it as well) or on any other wargaming forums, its likely me. I intentionally spell it with an "e" instead of with an "i" to be sure that I always get the name strombole as "stromboli" is usually taken and I don't want a string of numbers behind my name... I want people to know when they see Strombole that they are talking to me... that goes for internet forums, the playstation network, youtube and pretty much anywhere else you are likely to run into the name strombole.
It's funny, I've had the nickname "Stromboli" ever since I was a small child based on the Stromboli from Pinnochio and yet of the two factions that I bought in to, neither of them are the puppet master Yurei, lol. I'm sure that will change though as the models are fantastic.
I can understand that... I guess I just see 10 models as small scale whereas others would see 5 as small scale... thats cool. My favorite game right now (or at least tied with Dust warfare which is a large scale lots of models game) is Infinity and you would seldom ever see more than 10 models in that game and I would consider it a small scale skirmish game.... Like I said... its just me... when I used to play 40k, I played apocalypse most of the time, I had something like 12 different armies that were all huge and I wanted to throw down huge amounts of men and have a war. A part of me hasn't lost that feeling which is why I play large games of Dust... it just looks awesome having tons of soldiers and vehicles everywhere on a big terrain filled table getting it on. But then I need a break after that and can be found playing a little game of LOTR SBG or Infinity, and recently, Bushido... it is cool playing a really small amount of minis on a small table.... my only point was it might be cool to be able to still play Bushido when I get the urge to go bigger and see a bunch of minis on the table rather than putting away Bushido and playing something else instead. ... like I think seeing two samurai clans clashing would be epic, for example. I don't propose changing Bushido into a large scale army game or anything, I'm just looking for a reasonable way to still play Bushido when I do feel like going bigger. But hey, thats what houserules are for.
I don't think Bushido will go much farther than around ten models on each side. So far there are so many newbies around who only have about a starter. 50 rice will probably soon be the norm, I'd say.
If you want large battles, or even larger skirmishes, there are many other good games around that you can play with Bushido minis as well.
I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.
Don't worry guys, I'm not crusading to change your beloved game into something else, lol... Just throwing my thoughts out there... I saw the thread and added in some thoughts. Cheers.
Now I have to finish basing my last 2 Keisotsu Butai for an Infinity game I'm having in a couple hours and hopefully I'll convert another player over to Bushido with a tiny little demo of the game. Plus I need to check my mailbox as I have prefecture and Rokan starters, Riku, Hotaru and Mikio arriving any day now... Hopefully today!
Two of the best games I've played so far have been 55 rice, and they seemed huge! It want so bad for me with the cult but my temple opponent was trying to keep tabs on 20+ ki a turn, and that did not look easy! I'm intending to run a 55 rice wave warband at rudders tomorrow, and i'm not sure 2ft is going to be able to handle it!
Never tell me the odds: Han Solo;)
(avatar from http://www.sillof.com/C-samuraiwars.htm)
Depends. An all Oni force + Doggie is 60 rice and only 5 models. Still really skirmish size
I thinking too 50 is a solid point size, because of the rising point costs of newer models, and 50rice is just the starter + one of the more expensive models.
I have no idea why we got stuck on 55 rice, but I do enjoy the flexibility the extra 5 gives, maybe well try 60 do the puppy can play:)
Never tell me the odds: Han Solo;)
(avatar from http://www.sillof.com/C-samuraiwars.htm)
My only comment here is that I hope V.2 won't break the unique model effect. Its why I like Bushido - the characters are really characters and each have a real individuality to them. I think there is plenty of ground to expand, and a simple release of 1 new model every 1-2 months will certainly give GCT a steady income (thats what.... sculpting 1 new model every fortnight? I'm no expert sculptor but that shouldn't be too huge a task in my opinion for the pro's!! Especially when there is a cash incentive behind doing the work).
As for the models, I definately think the rules should be limited at 1-model per card. There may be later expansions with heroic characters (e.g.: Ekusa Enlightened) which you can only take one named character of (i.e.: you can only take one Ekusa - Master or Enlightened) which gives further production value and model expansion - and some models may be re-done (though given the quality of the Bushido models I can't think who would need work done!). But anyway - I'm just saying I hope V.2 does NOT allow people to take 6 Waka and 2 Bakemono to make a single 50-rice force.
Just saying thats a LOT of headless budda's out there who won't be too happy about it!!
I would not condone being able to take 5 "Hiro' models for 60 rice, but I condone taking one Hiro for 12 and 12 lesser Samurai for 4 rice each that have no feats or tons of wounds. They would have a little uumph for single wound 4 rice models and they have the armour bonus but not much else.
Well, I played it out with some modified rules and stats anyway just to try it. Heroes/characters are still that. I just added in very cheap, single rice, single wound models with no special abilities that group together into units. For every model in the unit in BTB they get 1 CP dice (or for the Samurai I gave them 2 each to justify their 4 rice cost per model). It worked just fine and a hero like Hiro (pun intended) can come right in and with his Ki feats, etc, kill a bunch of lowly peasants in a unit making him still very worth his 12 rice... I enjoyed it... it gave me something to do with the 25 Samurai, Ashigaru and "kung Fu" models that I have from other companies while I wait for the official Bushido models to arrive (trying to get Bushido here where I am in Canada is near impossible and oredering from the States takes even longer than ordering direct from the UK as the US retailers I have seen that carry it don't really stock it but order it after you order from them... man I've been waiting a long time for the minis).
But I think it says a lot for the core game system that a game designed for 5 or 6 models each plays just as well with a two second tweak to accomodate armies of 15-20 models each. I love the game system and I love the models (hopefully I will have some soon) but I honestly think I will continue to play the game with some bigger number armies where the Bushido characters are the elite heroes of the force that includes units of peasnat like, unskilled, cheap rice costed fodder troops. I find it doesn't take away from strategy... I find that in some ways, it adds more things to think about strategy wise...
... I am fully aware that the entire forum will promptly jump all over me for saying this, lol
Of course once I actually get the real Bushido minis in my hands the small scall 5 or 6 small table gameplay may be more than enough for me as I might not want to mix in any other models in with these models, so who knows... its different when you have to proxy models in to play because right now I don't have any cards anyway so it doesn't seem like a big deal to add in some extra guys.... We'll see.
I don't think it's all about the forums jumping on you.
I will now make an "argument" against what you're saying, but "argument" in the form of "discussion based on a differing set of views which encourages further conversation on the matter."
I guess I see it this way:
There is a faction that can do the "lots of little dudes who can't do much on their own, but can get pretty good when they group together" schtick already. Savage Wave. They've got a whole mechanism (Bakemono Horde) to do it. Having a bunch of "no-name" Samurai would make the Savage Wave's special character (as in "trait") less... characterful...
Could the Savage Wave stand to maybe get another couple "schlub" Bakemono? Sure, I guess. They've been getting higher-cost ones, but could possibly go for some more of the super-cheap ones and you could fill your deployment zone with them.
There are some people that call me... Polar_Bear
In fact, most do.
Come see me over at http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/.
I will likely change my mind when I get the real models. I'm just experimenting right now because I'm using a mish mash of models from different games in proxy and it is slanting things because I'm looking at a model of a chinese martial artist with two swords and so it makes me want to have Bushido rules for a Rokan monk with swords... I'm a very much visual person so until I get the models in hand, looking at the anima tactics, or Hell Dorado, or Infintiy, or wargames factory samurai models is making me want to play the game so that it looks like they are the proper models... thats probably the big problem for me. I could proxy with anything but I'm choosing models that are already Chinese or Japanese models from other things as I always want the models to represent whats going on. So its colouring the games I'm playing.
When my Bushido models arrive and I can actually have a Kenko and a Riku and Hotaru, etc, then I will have proper cards for them that I can put in protective sleeves and be all excited for my new toys and I will want to play them for who they are and then the game will likely automatically turn into a normal game of Bushido. But since I'm proxying anyway, I'm experimenting. Which is good because I can see how these rules can scale up for bigger games which is a testament to the ruleset I think.
So in the end, finding out that by just tweaking the outnumbering bonus rules a bit, the rules can accomodate a large-ish unit (I would never play it on an army scale but more on a large skirmish scale... like a LOTR SBG as opposed to a 40k) fighting a hero of the same points cost and have it be a fair fight representative of the equal costs.... It validates the ruleset for me that it can handle more than 10 models per side so that way in a year from now when the catalog of models is large enough where I'll have more than 10 models per faction, that the game will be able to handle it if I decide to challenge someone to a "let's play with all the models" game.There was a time when warmachine was a 35 point game considered as a big game, now you regularly see 50 point games all the time. While starting Bushido at 50-60 Rice might be great right now, we may find the norm pushing 75 plus a year from now.... I'm just testing the waters is all. I still like the Bushido rules and style or else I wouldn't be on this forum talking Bushido, I'd just be a troll under a bridge talking about how the game is no good because its too small... and that is not my intent at all. I think the game is really cool at the 50-60 level. It makes it easier for me to convince a friend to buy a Bushido faction and then I'll have more opponents. Its easier to sell someone on starting anew game when they only have to buy $50 worth of models to start the game up with. That's all that the starter sets go for at a store about 30-40 minutes away from me sell them for... if they had them, but they don't. They got a couple of them in to try it out and sold them and haven't got any more since so I had to order them online from two different places. One place had the Rokan starter and Riku but not Hotaru or the prefecture starter, the other one had the prefecture starter and Hotaru but no Yurei, etc, etc... and I'm pretty sure they both just pretended that they had stock and when I ordered them, they oredered them from the UK because if they were in stock I would have them by now... I order stuff from the states all the time, so its pretty obvious that they never had them as physical stock when I ordered them.
I'm very much looking forward to receiving them and playing my first real game. I have played a bunch of games in Proxy using all kinds of stuff to try out all the different stats (last time I played I used a Krayt Dragon from Star Wars minis to be Mizuchi) but none of those games count in my mind because none of them were with the models that I should have been using. When I'm looking at my little black and white printed out stat card and the face on the card doesn't match the model I'm using and I have to occassionally stop and say "wait... was the Musashi model supposed to be Yumi or Kenko?" it screws me up and takes away from the game. As I said, when I get the models for real, I will likely not want to play with any additional models (at least not for a while at least).
I certainly understand where you're coming from with the "the game just doesn't feel the same with proxies."
I'm a HUGE advocate of using proxy models to figure out what stuff you do and don't like about a system/faction/model/whatever. I, too, played proxy games of Bushido before my models arrived. In Warmachine, I proxied whole armies to see if I wanted to get into a new faction. Before that, I did the same with 40k. I had Orkanids for the longest time, 'cause Orks came in the starter that my friend and I split, but I really wanted to play Tyranids. The cardboard cut-out dreadnaught from the 2nd edition box played the role of about 5 different large tyranids as I slowly worked my way to buying the models I actually needed.
So there, we're 100% on the same page. A proxy game gives you a really good idea of what you do and don't like, but it's still just a "really good idea" and not the actual knowledge. It's weird, you'd think it'd be the same, but for some reason, as you know, it's not. Using a stand-in model just isn't the same.
So yeah, I think when you get the actual figs, you'll maybe feel different.
That's not to say you'll look back at this thread in a couple weeks and go, "what the heck was I thinking?" I don't think that'll happen at all. But you will feel probably a little different about the game, in total.
And I really would suggest trying Savage Wave with a big Bakemono Horde going on (well, as big as one can be at the moment). Perhaps that's the sort of thing you're looking to play for a faction.
Also, Prefecture is getting a guy (well, girl actually) armed with two swords. She's their Wave 8 release. :p
There are some people that call me... Polar_Bear
In fact, most do.
Come see me over at http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/.
Actually 50 rice is already a bit too much for a Skirmish games, as turns tend to take too much time. It's a good set if players want to have the feel of a "great battle", as 10 mniautres in each side in a Bushido game is a bit overwhelming (at least, in our local store).
I understand players want to play with everything they have, or at least, as many units as they can. But if you think about it, Bushido miniatures come up regularly and in the end, I'm seing some player wanting to play 100 point game since that's the only way to play with all the units they like.
This game makes you choose the units you want to deploy, and it makes you choose hard. And that's the spirit it should keep for a long time. The good thing is that, the more miniatures you get for each faction, the easier will be filling list to exactly 35 rice list and keep the balance.
EDIT: moreover, the difference between 4 and 5 activations can be huge. The difference between 10 and 11, is not so.