I've yet to play a game, but have been pouring over the booklet and cards to try to decipher how these guys work.
Now, their 'goons' (Kairai) have pretty below average stats. They're slow, CB is below par and they don't seem to have as many wounds as other 'goons'/ However, with Kato they simply will not die. And that is awesome. So I'm guessing the idea is to bog the enemy down with an unstoppable wave of Kairai.
This brings up the question of Ki, of which none of our goons generate by themselves. This means if you want to stock up on them that Kato and Ikiryo are going to be lacking somewhat as all their Ki gets stolen. You want to be keeping Ki on Kato for mannequins and to pass around 'rise again', which is going to be quite a strain on his Ki. Ikiryo wants to keep a few a well, otherwise she'll just die horribly.
So I'm wondering of you folks who have played if you could outline your basic strategy and how well (and easily) it was pulled off.
I'm up against the Prefecture next week and looking at their cards gives me the heebie-jeebies! Hiro is just so scary!
Your key weapon against Prefecture is using Ikiriyos gaze against Hanso. Well against anyone. She's your artillery against low Ki enemy. She was devastating against me.
Moving Ki onto the Kairai really didn't work well. The threat of the marionette, rise again, and the gaze is where it is at. The kairai are just fodder that refuse to die.
Fear is also very important. You will find that the enmey falter when trying to chew their way through to your support. Fear 6 is just devastating.
Cult look really tricky to play, but it looks like attrition with powerful game swinging abilities are their modus operandi.
"He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still"
I normaly play the Prefecture as my faction but from the last few games using Cult I have succefully managed to scrap a victory or two...
I keep kato behind the Kairai and make sure they get enough ki to use their feats. specially the Ashigaru zombie. the geisha need to be used carefully , keep her out of sight of minuro and his big gun and target the other two ashigarus or hanso ,that's the guy to kill early in the game if possible, so look into the void if you got the chance on him . Forget Hiro and his strong mind. I belive you will have a couple turns before any hacking start taking place so use it well so you maximize the chi generated..
once the Prefecture is grabing you by the troath (and they will)
the Ashigaru zombie should get his fear up and the one with Chill be the target of rise . dark healing on the last zombie if you manage to have this done when they engage in combat and choose wisely your dice placement you may have a chance of hurting even Hiro ... and then drain life and chi with Ikiryo.and make kato fearfull that will make hin a bit hard to deal with.
if you are playing the Idols scenario, remember that you'll have to make sure you can remove their soulless trait at the right time, to turn the idols.
For this reason, it is practical to store 2 Ki on your Karai, if you can afford it, though as far as you make sure there's one on most of them you can probably minimize any problem leeching a sufficient amount at any time to do that.
Overall, I think the Cult are the most tricky to play with currently, but they are very rewarding when you score a victory with them, unlike those lesser factions yet to realize death is a much less stressful existence, overall.
Then again, that's my excuse for losing or drawing most often than not ;-)
don't ask me about rules, I'm unruly
Thanks guys, some really good advice here. I think it's all starting to make sense in my head!
Defying Evolution Since 1983
Thats what all members of the Cult say
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
no... what the Cult members say is: "I think it's all starting to make sense in THEIR head!". Well and by sense we mean this relative to the truth beyond the void!
don't ask me about rules, I'm unruly
Following on from my second game with the man yesterday and 'beans request for how you kill an oni I'm gonna put down a few tactics that have worked for me. Bear in mind that this is based on two games against the SavWav so aren't in anyway encyclopaedic!
Firstly Ki management-
I tend to make sure that each kairai has at least enough to kick off their own ki feat.
"Chill": a great feat. Our Kairai always strike last due to slow. Chill gives the enemy you are attacking slow too, until the end of the turn meaning that kairai attacking the chilled individual will hit them first!
"Haunting Visions": Fear is our greatest asset, fear of this battlestation! (hang on, wrong film) All our models have access to at least fear 4. Nothing spoils a Bakemono's day than not having the stones to attack any of your team. Even with Bravery they are odds on gonna fail fear tests. Team members like Ikiryo with her fear 6 give even an oni pause for thought. The Kairai Ashigaru's feat can beef up the grief to fear 6 too and with armour and toughness taking care of 2 potential wounds this fella can take a bit of punishment before falling. However it's the fear that will make a difference. "haunting visions" is a free action too, so as soon as your enemy declares it's charge/move to attack, kick off the feat and they'll have to roll a six or lose their activation! For this reason alone I'll always keep 3 ki on the Ashigaru.
"Dark Healing": I'll be honest I have yet to use this one effectively, as the Kairai only has 4 wounds the chances are it'll lose them all before being able to regenerate at the end of the turn, its only 2 ki but I feel that if your gonna get a kicking you may as well leave the ki on Kato for Rise again.
So having seen what each of our kairai can bring to the battlefield with their ki feats how can we manage ki? At the moment we have two great ki batteries with Kato and Ikiryo. The first turn of the game I'll leach ki to each Kairai to make sure it has enough for its feat. Also using Focus on this first turn works well effectively we can generate 12 ki on the first turn. Due to slow the Kairai will only get 6 inches up the battlefield with two walk actions and although Focus, as it is a complex action, will exhaust both K & I one run action at the start of the next turn will bring them straight back in the game with another simple action each.
To save this from turning into an enormo post (and because I don't want to spend all evening writing it), I'll wrap things up here for now...
Warning: May become grumpy when drunk
Good write up.
Yes focus in the first turn is a must for all Cult players.
Having faced up against the Cult, I can agree that fear is a very useful weapon as is rise again. I have not yet had a marionette take over my model but the threat of it happening has changed my battle plan more than once.
Ikiryo is possibly the greatest asset in the starter set with a huge threat capacity as well as crowd control and being able to reflect up to 3 points of damage back to the attacker, but she must be protected to do the job.
The Cult's biggest flaw is their slow trait and general lethargy, it will be interesting to see if the Rat-Man thing changes this. And speaking as Corpsesmith's opponent by 'interesting' I mean I'm pretty much bricking it at the thought considering the narrow victory of the last match.
Slipping on messes you made when I hit you makes me more excitable.
So continuing (finally) from my earlier thoughts about Cult tactics:
The marionette. I've played this one in two different ways so far. First time I built up max Ki and fired the thing off with 8 ki on it. Not only did this take about three turns, it also limited Kato's ability to support the kairais leaching abilities as he was having to hog his own ki. The waste of resources was highlighted by Kato then getting killed before the marionnette had the opportunity to attempt to take over an enemy model.
The reason I had put so much ki onto it was due to a slight misreading of its card. When attempting to take over an enemy model you roll 1 die per ki on it, however following a successful takeover (and this is what I got wrong) you only place "control markers" on the enemy model equal to the success level you acheived follwoing an opposed ki test. Admittedly the more ki the more dice you roll and the higher the probability of you rolling a high SL
The real threat in the marionette is what it may do. I plan to put one into play by turn 2 and have one in play at all times following this. The threat of losing a model for a turn or so is usually enough to lead an opponent to avoid the marionnette. Therefore use it offensively. Actively go toward the enemy and watch them move away to try to avoid it. If you lose it through attacks or lose a takeover attempt it doesn't matter it hasn't really cost you any real time or effort and remember the more shots and attention that an opponent gives to the marionette is less than they would be giving to other, more important models!
So I would conclude: Kato is a puppet master. Use his puppets!
Warning: May become grumpy when drunk
Good summary of the marionette.
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Hy it´s my first post here and I´m wondering if you have some more tactic advice since there are new models out there since the last post. :)
I´m currently painting my starter box and try to get a feeling for the game. ;)
Welcome to the faction for strategists and sneaky gits:) and buy nezumi and the uber rats!
here a few bits on the later waves from my own experience-
Nezumi- Nezumi is like a glass dagger, he has a lot of punch but is fragile, very much like the temple’s Kitsune. You need to play very carefully with him to get the best from him. Use the fact that he and his rats activate simultaneously and fight in the order you choose to outnumber powerful foes, tie up bodyguards or just remove enemy ZoC so you can get to your target. If you can outnumber it’s great as with co-ordinated attack pumping Nezumi to MCP 4, and the outnumbered dropping the enemies by one you can almost always be fighting with an advantage, two or more rats and you can take anything down. Save your Ki for replenishing rats, the support they give you is way more useful than transforming. The transformation feat is very risky, and is best only used for the 4ki teleport trick (one rat either side of the table, transform for 2Ki, transform back wherever you are needed most (behind an unsuspecting child for instance)- remember never EVER transform with less than 4 Ki!!) the teleport trick can also be great in scenario play- drop token in own shrine, transform, next turn transform the rat at the enemy shrine into Nezumi and despoil.
Lynchpins- small rat swarm, rat swarm.
Uses- assassin, snatch and grab objectives, block movement(rats)
Avoid- 3MCP or more opponents if no rats around, Hotaru (rats), Bobata
Araka- Araka is the cults best defensive model, he’s like a giant sponge for soaking up stupid enemies with big swords, as long as you avoid the insta-killers like Hiro or Waka this guy can take an immense amount of damage, especially with another model nearby to leech off, although the fact he casts rise again on himself means he is incredibly self sufficient, you can just leech 4 Ki in turn one and leave him to wander off into an enemy model, who will then probably be stuck fighting him forever, if your opponent is really silly they’ll send reinforcements in. Although he is best used tying up scary models, he isn’t bad on the attack either with a +1strength smack in the face, if you target weak opponents the free ranged attack is nice too. The ranged attack itself isn’t particularly great, but if you do get lucky gore is very irritating for your opponent. Combine with Gok’s cloud of flies to make opponents fight you on a slightly fairer basis. Biggest downside- 9 rice of soulless without the ability to gain one, he just doesn’t fit into 35 rice games very well.
Lynchpins- Gok
Uses- bog down enemies, hold areas, threaten key models
Avoid- Hiro, Waka, Kato, two headed oni
Orphan+Wrath- hard to use at first, the more you play with them the better they feel, the obvious trick is focus on turn one, vomit wrath turn two, send him off then advance (carefully) send him in against anything nasty, then if he dies vomit again, repeat process, you should be able to get 3 a game if you’re lucky. Wrath is great at hunting down weaker foes like ashigaru, peasants and bakemono, and once his Ki is up he can even worry the mid-range warriors like hanso, especially with sharp so use him to threaten objectives, guard space and pile in with other models. Another underused ability from wrath is the Ki delivery boy, vomit him out, send him running towards a beleagured kairai or araka, then they get to leech the ki off, maybe leaving the odd scraping so he can jump in afterwards. The orphan is a bit trickier, keep her away from anything bigger than a rat swarm, in fact if you have a spare kairai to watch her it’s probably a good thing. Her own feat aside from Wrath can be good if used right, walking opponents out of entrances/objectives or into charge range is very useful, although for two Ki a cheeky wrath is always fun. Biggest downside- Although she has a soul and can claim objectives, that would mean putting her way too close to sharp things.
Lynchpins- Kairai, Araka
Uses- hunting weak enemies, assassin, tin opener. Mobile Ki battery, (wrath) objective denial (orphan)
Avoid- everything! (Orphan) nothing! (wrath) after all you can always get a new one.
Gengo- Gengo is at first a bit of a mystery, poor fighter, feat that only helps Kairai (who get enough help from Kato) and terrible Ki generation, but he can be very useful. Firstly he is the cheapest model with a soul in the whole cult at the moment, and dropping the ashigaru Kairai for him can make your 35 rice games a lot easier objective wise, though obviously less fun:). Secondly his feat can counter one of your goons biggest downsides, and therefore make cheap kairai more threatening. In addition to this he can feed them Ki when nearby if he isn’t using his feat. He can also make a good team with Gok, swapping wounds for Ki over vast distances and keeping the battlefield balanced in your favour. Used on his own he can soak up a fair bit of damage as long as he hasn’t knifed himself up too much, but overall he is a good support model rather than a stand up fighter.
Lynchpins- Kairai, Gok
Uses- Kairai support, Objective taking
Avoid- anything 3CP or more, ranged attacks, himself getting over excited
Gok- probably the most complex and infuriating model in the Cult, Gok can be both a game winner and a nightmare on the field. Good Ki generation, lots of wounds, nice batch of traits, unfortunately stupid. A lot, always at the worst possible time in fact. His cloud of flies is a breakthrough for the cult, dropping enemy MCP to a level we can deal with, and his other tricks can really mess up the disciplined march of close set warbands like the prefecture. Used with Gengo he can turn a poor Kairai into a fighter on level pegging with most mid-range models. His survivability is one of his greatest assets though, and he can take Araka’s place as a defensive piece, though with more flexibility, especially as he (thankfully) comes with a soul. Biggest downside- Stupid… and he costs a lot of rice! Don’t even consider him at 35 rice!
Lynchpins- Kairai, Gengo
Uses- bog down enemies, kairai support, Ki battery
Avoid- Hiro, Waka, two headed Oni.
Rat Swarm- cheap as chips and much more gribbly, these little fellas are very useful indeed, they are hard to kill quickly due to their durable trait, eat people with sharp (having the best MCP in the faction in full wounds), can tie up multiple foes well with Tireless, and can still combine with Nezumi giving him an extra dice and eating his rats to regenerate. I think the rats would be the best all rounder in the whole faction if only they could take and hold objectives! Good for blocking lines of approach to models like kato and Ikiryo as well, she can blast enemies over their scuttling backs whilst being safe from retaliatory charges and obscured to shooting. Watch out for poison, fire and any model that can make multiple attacks in one activation though, these are deadly.
Lynchpins- Nezumi, Small rat swarms, Ikiryo.
Uses- bog down enemies, support model, tin opener.
Avoid-Hiro, Waka, two headed oni, Hotaru, Kitsune. Shisa.
Never tell me the odds: Han Solo;)
(avatar from http://www.sillof.com/C-samuraiwars.htm)
Hey thanks a lot. :)
Now I'm in a little trouble because Gengo and Gok would be good for my Zombies but I realy dont like the models. But I realy like all kinds of rats and the Orphan.
At which pointlevels do you play? Isnt it hard to get at odd points?
Sry for my english, Im no native ;)
I play 35 and 55, as soon as there are a few more waves out ill probably drop to 35 and 50 as it'll be easier to get a balanced force in once there's more choice. It can be hard to get the odd points in, but the rats can help with that a lot!
If you dont like Gengo and Gok then go for Rat attack, my 35 rice list for sunday is-
Ikiryo- 10
Gengo- 5 (15)
Nezumi- 7 (22)
2 Rat Swarms- 2 (24)
Large rat swarm- 6 (30)
Ashigaru Kairai- 5 (35)
You don't need Kairai, but they add so much flavour to the faction its hard to resist them:) And Gengo and Gok are much nicer in the flesh as it were, so don't write them off just yet:)
Never tell me the odds: Han Solo;)
(avatar from http://www.sillof.com/C-samuraiwars.htm)
I want to add the Wrath is much deadlier than it seems. Sometimes it's good to hunt cheap enemies, but he can perfectly instakill an exhausted Hiro or Monk.
The idea is to wait for everyone to move, keeping Wrath far from Melee distance. As soon as one of the fat ones exhaust (doesn't work as well vs. high wound characters like Onis), charge him using an intangible 8'' movement so that you get him from behing (just go through him). It means the character will have to pass a fear 5 test, and get -2 to CP (-1 exhausted, -1 from behind). Not only that, he won't be able to use any of those nasty ki feat, or even boost stats. If you mange this with a Ki5+ Warth, boost 1-2 dice in CP and the rest in strenght.
You can also use this attack to wipe out an an enemy btb with a model you want free or who is btb and about to kill an important ally. This way, Warth also benefits from outnumber. Just the sharp trait plus a high boost in damage (+4 aprox.) can tear up almost anything below 7 wounds if he doesn't get a lucky 6 in the dice.
Remember that if the opponent intends to kill Wrath, he will have to sacrifice 1 dice into attack. Which means 1 dice less into defence. And if he rolls everything into defense, it means Wrath will stay btb making opponents waste activations on a totally spare mini.
(Psst! You only get surprise if the attack originated and was entirely out of LoS.)
I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.
Shit! Of course! i forgot you can't charge if you can't see the opponent! I must really have a few games to refresh everything, it's been months since last game. Then the intakill will likely happen when jumping into tied combats where the opponent can't turn around and see you. At least it's not as overpowered as I thought it was.
I think you misunderstood me, even if it's true that you cannot charge what you cannot see.
You can't run around, or through, an enemy to attack in the rear and so get surprise. You only surprise if you begin the action out of line of sight. (Regardless of whether the figure is in melee or not.)
I follow the rules of bushido. I am a bushi.
Yes you need LoS to charge a target
I think the moving through Hakkor is referring to is from Intangible. Wrath can easily move through walls and surprise models in the back arc with a melee action though.
"To a real warrior, power perceived may be power achieved."
Yes, I'm sorry. My tactic explanation go so fast in my mind I usually miss half of the explanation. But yes, the idea is to attack through walls and other unit, getting a units back.
Now that I know the enemy unit can't see you at any moment to benefit from a "backstab!", I guess most of the times wrath will need 2 activations to do so. The first one to move to the rear arc of an enemy unit and a second one to get it from behind. That's why the enemy unit must be exhausted or trapped in melee in a way it can't turn around.
Actually I prefer much more this strict ruling, as It makes the game more strategic and less lethal (or at least, in reduces chances of instakills).